I have no example in my life of any kind of relationship that I have any desire to emulate. My parents are divorced. My mother has been remarried 5 times. My aunt has been married for 6 years and her man has been with who knows how many other women during the time of their marriage. So this leaves me to the question, is it really worth the trouble? If your marriage will inevitably fail, which statistically speaking is very probable, then why go through this at all? Oddly enough I am actually, myself, engaged. I am very young still, and those that I have told (most of my friends/family aren’t members) seem to think it’s a bad idea. I agree in many ways. So why am I engaged? Because I love someone, and I want to believe more than everything else that something like a happy marriage exists. He is from a family polar opposite to mine, everyone stays married (though still I would argue that they are of fairytale happiness). So I sit here hoping that he might be able to lead me along the way, teach me how a marriage can work, I have to trust this man with the rest of my life. So my question is what if he does not treat me well? I know the church is not accepting of divorce but when is it considered to be ok? Is it wrong to leave someone because of verbal or emotional abuse? His only desire in life is to be married, to be married to me. He tells me it’s a commandment and that we must follow it. What is it that the church really means by these commandments? Is it ok not to marry at all?
3 Responses to “I have no example in my life of any kind of relationship tha…”
Mario Paz
2010-10-03 06:02:55
The Recife temple in Recife, Brazil.
Excellent responses to your question have already been given. I just wanted to add a few comments.
Every marriage is fragile and needs to be carefully nurtured, but, statistically speaking, a temple marriage between two Mormons is far more likely to succeed than the average American marriage. Studies have shown that less than 10% of temple marriages end in divorce. That doesn't mean that Mormons can be complacent. We need to work on our marriages just like everybody else, but hopefully that statistic can at least help alleviate some of your concerns. :)
Just to clarify, the Church certainly does discourage divorce, but it does not expect men or women to subject themselves to constant abuse. You should keep your eyes wide open during your courtship to make sure your fiancé is not an abusive man. Observe him in various situations, and see how he reacts to challenges. Dating is a time for careful evaluation. I don't encourage ultimatums in a marriage, but in the case of abuse I think they are entirely appropriate. No one should have to suffer through such humiliation.
It's true that, barring certain extraordinary circumstances like same-gender attraction, marriage in general is a commandment, but God never commanded you to marry any specific man. You have your free agency. You should evaluate for yourself whether or not you want to marry your fiancé. Study the question out in your mind, and then, when you're ready, ask God what He thinks through prayer. I'd be very concerned if your fiancé is trying to manipulate you into marrying him by arguing that God demands it. God let's us choose our own spouses, offering us guidance but never forcing us.
Richard
2010-09-25 18:13:38
Members of the Church believe that marriages performed in temples are "sealed," or blessed to last for eternity.
Yes statistics on marriage today are very scary, and the outlook can become bleak. I feel however that even with all the world raging around a marriage the two individuals that make up that marriage are the ones that choose daily to re-fall in love, look past shortcomings of their partner (because I'm sure we all have something), and choose to stick with the person no matter what.
Granted the best option is to have your eyes full open to your partner, and be open and honest yourself to them, before you choose to get married, and then keep your eyes half closed and your heart full of love toward your choice after and during marriage.
Try to follow the counsel of our living prophet and get married/sealed in a temple. That way the blessings and power of the temple can help to fortify against the world to a degree. This of course will not eliminate all of the temptations and hardships of life as we have been sent to earth to be tried, tested and to learn, but what it will do will grant your marriage the eternal perspective as in you will continue to be together beyond your deaths, so that it's just not a 'living together with privileges' relationship.
As a personal response to the last few lines of your question I would say 'red flag' here and be truthful and tell him that you want to postpone it for a little while longer to make sure that you have made the correct choice.
Yes it is a commandment that we are to seek out and be joined with an eternal companion, but we are also counseled and commanded to seek God's help in our choice, as well as seek counsel from your parents and priesthood leaders as they have responsibility and the right to help you and give spiritual counsel. That does not take away our choice of agency as we need to 'study it out in our minds' come to our own conclusion, take that conclusion to the Lord, and we are promised (from God who cannot lie) if it is 'right he shall cause that your heart shall burn'... Or in other words he will give you a 'yes that is a good choice' feeling. (You need to know that he will answer you and you also need to live so that you are worthy of his answer through the Holy Ghost) If you are not sure what that means I'd suggest contacting a local LDS missionary they can help....
Best of luck sister, and may God bless you in your efforts.
Bruce
2010-09-25 19:53:50
The concept of a united family that lives and progresses forever is at the core of Latter-day Saint doctrine.
It's a sad thing, but the lack of good examples to follow seems to be a self perpetuating condition in our world. It's easy to watch tv or go to the movies and follow the bad examples and immoral standards the world pushes into our lives.
If our family is not used to being positive or is happy leading a life of self satisfaction with no concern for family, building good sound relationships or for service to others then it is hard to accept or want to follow a faith based path.
When you find a friend, a mentor, or a potential companion who has good morals, positive attributes, high standards and ethics, then I'd grab the opportunity to allow yourself a life changing experience. But take your time and don't rush.
I had a choice 33 years ago to go the way of the world or to choose to live a life based on the gospel. It was the best choice I ever made. My life changed, and I met and married the incredible woman who I am still married to, 32 years later. I will be married to her for eternity and look forward to the adventure.
Statistics have nothing to do with you and your relationship unless you allow them to. If your companion has good examples in his life, make sure you get to know them. When you marry someone, (most times, in my opinon) you are also marrying their family. If you have met them and they make you feel good and you enjoy being with them, then you will probably have a very enjoyable marriage.
If you marry into problems, you can overcome them but, they will affect you in some way or another. Discuss those issues with your companion and resolve how to overcome or get around them. Create a plan together and don't hide things.
Take your time and get to know the person you want to make a commitment to. Short and quick relationships that lead to marriage are usually only emotionally based, and from what I have observed, lead eventually to divorce. Not always, but it seems that sometimes people get caught up in the idea of marriage and their desires, and forget to take time to get to really know someone and their background, what they are like, what their family is like and they jump in too fast, later to find out that was not someone they really want to spend eternity, let alone life with.
Be honest and share everything with your companion. Don't hold back. Most of us have problems and past issues we are not happy about, so make sure you are a clean slate with your future (or current) companion. Honesty is the best policy. If you do this, you will build a trusting relationship and have the foundation for a long marriage. Don't hide your past, or your feelings.
Don't go to bed angry at anyone. Always say your are sorry and make up. Don't hold grudges. It's easy to do if you are in a habit of praying every night.
Happy marriages exist! I have one of them! I adore my wife and enjoy taking care of her, serving her needs, rubbing her feet, going places with her, shopping with her, sitting around and talking together about our lives, things I'm doing, things she is doing, and things our kids are doing. We love going to the movies, traveling, etc. She reciprocates and takes care of me and enjoys being with me too. We have had a great life together so far. The experience of raising kids has been satisfying and wonderful, as we learned what to do and not do along the way. We made mistakes but looking back, and looking at our adult kids today, we are so happy we had the opportunity to go through that experience. We have great kids and now some grandkids. Grandkids are the bonus!
It has not all been perfect... We have had our disagreements, ups and downs, hard times, financial problems, etc. But, it always gets better, we get through tough times together and we are happy.
I think the difference is this.... We have a common goal and our life is gospel centered. We serve one another and we serve our God by being of service to others. Jesus Christ is the center of our lives. We talk to Heavenly Father daily..... We pray together before we go to bed and in the morning. We read the scriptures together so we can figure out what our lives are about. We learn new things and find out how the scriptures relate to our lives today. We go to church on Sundays and we lead our daily lives throughout the week trying to be good examples, looking for opportunities to be of service to others. We are kind to each other and to those we come in contact with.
I know you said you do not have good examples to emulate. Well you really do. I think you could change your focus from your earthly family and emulate Jesus Christ. If you can emulate Him, then your life will change and you will have a wonderful marriage that lasts for eternity. Your Heavenly Father will be proud of you and opportunities to change your life into a positive one will unfold before you.
You mentioned peoples lives not being a fairy tale: life is not a fairy tale. Don't look for it unless you want to read it to a child to teach good examples and morals and give positive thoughts that make them feel safe.
Life is an adventure and experience full of ups and downs even for those with great marriages. It is how you choose to approach the difficulties in life that makes all the difference. It helps if you have a husband or wife that is one in thought, devotion and mind with you. That does not mean you have to have all the same interests and likes. If you have common goals and desires then life gives you joy along the path. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the great plan of happiness that you can have in your life.
Here are my thoughts to your last questions:
It's sad that you have to look at the potential negatives and focus on those rather than the positives but looking at your situation I understand your concerns.
1) What if he does not treat you well?
Spend enough time with him first before marriage to go beyond the facade. That could take 6 months or a year or more. Be old fashioned about your relationship and getting to your final decision. Ask questions of his friends or family that will give you insight into his personality, etc.
After time and seeing how he reacts and relates to you and to others, you will understand how he will treat you. You don't want to get into a marriage with someone that can not control their temper, has unresolved anger issues or jealousy issues. Run away from relationships if you find any traces of this.
I think it would be very difficult to lead a gospel centered life and end up abused by a spouse, but if you missed the signals or something changed in your lives and he treated you badly, you will be counseled to do all you can to resolve these issues through gospel oriented marriage counseling first. If you can't resolve it and it continues, then you may have to make a tough decision. In the church, you have a lot of support from friends and leaders to help you.
2) Is it wrong to leave someone because of verbal or emotional abuse?
Again, counseling may help this issue but if it is there to begin with, don't even think of getting involved with a person that has these issues. They will still exist in marriage later unless that person goes through therapy or counseling. Don't try to chance someone like this. They need to change themselves and realize they have a problem first.
If you end up in this situation and it can not be resolved, then the answer is no, abuse of any kind, physical or verbal is not acceptable. Verbal abuse is more detrimental in many cases over long periods of time. It is against God's law for a man to treat his wife (or a woman to treat her husband) this way.
3) Is it a commandment to get married? Marriage is ordained by God. There are more good reasons to be married than not. There are a lot of materials you should read about marriage on lds.org that will help you see the positive side to marriage and why it is so important to do it correctly.
The first marriage recorded in the Bible in Genesis 1:
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ch. 2: 18 And the Lord God said, it is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
In Ephesians 5 it says:
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Is it okay not to marry at all? You could choose not to marry but if you understand the great plan of happiness, if you believe in Jesus Christ, if you know the gospel to be true or at least you are trying to understand it, then marriage makes sense. I think the one best declaration that sums it all up is the church's "The Family: A Proclamation to the World".
Mario Paz: Very nice answer, Bruce! Thanks for your help. :)
Every marriage is fragile and needs to be carefully nurtured, but, statistically speaking, a temple marriage between two Mormons is far more likely to succeed than the average American marriage. Studies have shown that less than 10% of temple marriages end in divorce. That doesn't mean that Mormons can be complacent. We need to work on our marriages just like everybody else, but hopefully that statistic can at least help alleviate some of your concerns. :)
Just to clarify, the Church certainly does discourage divorce, but it does not expect men or women to subject themselves to constant abuse. You should keep your eyes wide open during your courtship to make sure your fiancé is not an abusive man. Observe him in various situations, and see how he reacts to challenges. Dating is a time for careful evaluation. I don't encourage ultimatums in a marriage, but in the case of abuse I think they are entirely appropriate. No one should have to suffer through such humiliation.
It's true that, barring certain extraordinary circumstances like same-gender attraction, marriage in general is a commandment, but God never commanded you to marry any specific man. You have your free agency. You should evaluate for yourself whether or not you want to marry your fiancé. Study the question out in your mind, and then, when you're ready, ask God what He thinks through prayer. I'd be very concerned if your fiancé is trying to manipulate you into marrying him by arguing that God demands it. God let's us choose our own spouses, offering us guidance but never forcing us.
Granted the best option is to have your eyes full open to your partner, and be open and honest yourself to them, before you choose to get married, and then keep your eyes half closed and your heart full of love toward your choice after and during marriage.
Try to follow the counsel of our living prophet and get married/sealed in a temple. That way the blessings and power of the temple can help to fortify against the world to a degree. This of course will not eliminate all of the temptations and hardships of life as we have been sent to earth to be tried, tested and to learn, but what it will do will grant your marriage the eternal perspective as in you will continue to be together beyond your deaths, so that it's just not a 'living together with privileges' relationship.
As a personal response to the last few lines of your question I would say 'red flag' here and be truthful and tell him that you want to postpone it for a little while longer to make sure that you have made the correct choice.
Yes it is a commandment that we are to seek out and be joined with an eternal companion, but we are also counseled and commanded to seek God's help in our choice, as well as seek counsel from your parents and priesthood leaders as they have responsibility and the right to help you and give spiritual counsel. That does not take away our choice of agency as we need to 'study it out in our minds' come to our own conclusion, take that conclusion to the Lord, and we are promised (from God who cannot lie) if it is 'right he shall cause that your heart shall burn'... Or in other words he will give you a 'yes that is a good choice' feeling. (You need to know that he will answer you and you also need to live so that you are worthy of his answer through the Holy Ghost) If you are not sure what that means I'd suggest contacting a local LDS missionary they can help....
Best of luck sister, and may God bless you in your efforts.
If our family is not used to being positive or is happy leading a life of self satisfaction with no concern for family, building good sound relationships or for service to others then it is hard to accept or want to follow a faith based path.
When you find a friend, a mentor, or a potential companion who has good morals, positive attributes, high standards and ethics, then I'd grab the opportunity to allow yourself a life changing experience. But take your time and don't rush.
I had a choice 33 years ago to go the way of the world or to choose to live a life based on the gospel. It was the best choice I ever made. My life changed, and I met and married the incredible woman who I am still married to, 32 years later. I will be married to her for eternity and look forward to the adventure.
Statistics have nothing to do with you and your relationship unless you allow them to. If your companion has good examples in his life, make sure you get to know them. When you marry someone, (most times, in my opinon) you are also marrying their family. If you have met them and they make you feel good and you enjoy being with them, then you will probably have a very enjoyable marriage.
If you marry into problems, you can overcome them but, they will affect you in some way or another. Discuss those issues with your companion and resolve how to overcome or get around them. Create a plan together and don't hide things.
Take your time and get to know the person you want to make a commitment to. Short and quick relationships that lead to marriage are usually only emotionally based, and from what I have observed, lead eventually to divorce. Not always, but it seems that sometimes people get caught up in the idea of marriage and their desires, and forget to take time to get to really know someone and their background, what they are like, what their family is like and they jump in too fast, later to find out that was not someone they really want to spend eternity, let alone life with.
Be honest and share everything with your companion. Don't hold back. Most of us have problems and past issues we are not happy about, so make sure you are a clean slate with your future (or current) companion. Honesty is the best policy. If you do this, you will build a trusting relationship and have the foundation for a long marriage. Don't hide your past, or your feelings.
Don't go to bed angry at anyone. Always say your are sorry and make up. Don't hold grudges. It's easy to do if you are in a habit of praying every night.
Happy marriages exist! I have one of them! I adore my wife and enjoy taking care of her, serving her needs, rubbing her feet, going places with her, shopping with her, sitting around and talking together about our lives, things I'm doing, things she is doing, and things our kids are doing. We love going to the movies, traveling, etc. She reciprocates and takes care of me and enjoys being with me too. We have had a great life together so far. The experience of raising kids has been satisfying and wonderful, as we learned what to do and not do along the way. We made mistakes but looking back, and looking at our adult kids today, we are so happy we had the opportunity to go through that experience. We have great kids and now some grandkids. Grandkids are the bonus!
It has not all been perfect... We have had our disagreements, ups and downs, hard times, financial problems, etc. But, it always gets better, we get through tough times together and we are happy.
I think the difference is this.... We have a common goal and our life is gospel centered. We serve one another and we serve our God by being of service to others. Jesus Christ is the center of our lives. We talk to Heavenly Father daily..... We pray together before we go to bed and in the morning. We read the scriptures together so we can figure out what our lives are about. We learn new things and find out how the scriptures relate to our lives today. We go to church on Sundays and we lead our daily lives throughout the week trying to be good examples, looking for opportunities to be of service to others. We are kind to each other and to those we come in contact with.
I know you said you do not have good examples to emulate. Well you really do. I think you could change your focus from your earthly family and emulate Jesus Christ. If you can emulate Him, then your life will change and you will have a wonderful marriage that lasts for eternity. Your Heavenly Father will be proud of you and opportunities to change your life into a positive one will unfold before you.
You mentioned peoples lives not being a fairy tale: life is not a fairy tale. Don't look for it unless you want to read it to a child to teach good examples and morals and give positive thoughts that make them feel safe.
Life is an adventure and experience full of ups and downs even for those with great marriages. It is how you choose to approach the difficulties in life that makes all the difference. It helps if you have a husband or wife that is one in thought, devotion and mind with you. That does not mean you have to have all the same interests and likes. If you have common goals and desires then life gives you joy along the path. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the great plan of happiness that you can have in your life.
Here are my thoughts to your last questions:
It's sad that you have to look at the potential negatives and focus on those rather than the positives but looking at your situation I understand your concerns.
1) What if he does not treat you well?
Spend enough time with him first before marriage to go beyond the facade. That could take 6 months or a year or more. Be old fashioned about your relationship and getting to your final decision. Ask questions of his friends or family that will give you insight into his personality, etc.
After time and seeing how he reacts and relates to you and to others, you will understand how he will treat you. You don't want to get into a marriage with someone that can not control their temper, has unresolved anger issues or jealousy issues. Run away from relationships if you find any traces of this.
I think it would be very difficult to lead a gospel centered life and end up abused by a spouse, but if you missed the signals or something changed in your lives and he treated you badly, you will be counseled to do all you can to resolve these issues through gospel oriented marriage counseling first. If you can't resolve it and it continues, then you may have to make a tough decision. In the church, you have a lot of support from friends and leaders to help you.
2) Is it wrong to leave someone because of verbal or emotional abuse?
Again, counseling may help this issue but if it is there to begin with, don't even think of getting involved with a person that has these issues. They will still exist in marriage later unless that person goes through therapy or counseling. Don't try to chance someone like this. They need to change themselves and realize they have a problem first.
If you end up in this situation and it can not be resolved, then the answer is no, abuse of any kind, physical or verbal is not acceptable. Verbal abuse is more detrimental in many cases over long periods of time. It is against God's law for a man to treat his wife (or a woman to treat her husband) this way.
3) Is it a commandment to get married? Marriage is ordained by God. There are more good reasons to be married than not. There are a lot of materials you should read about marriage on lds.org that will help you see the positive side to marriage and why it is so important to do it correctly.
The first marriage recorded in the Bible in Genesis 1:
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Ch. 2: 18 And the Lord God said, it is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
In Ephesians 5 it says:
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
Is it okay not to marry at all? You could choose not to marry but if you understand the great plan of happiness, if you believe in Jesus Christ, if you know the gospel to be true or at least you are trying to understand it, then marriage makes sense. I think the one best declaration that sums it all up is the church's "The Family: A Proclamation to the World".
Mario Paz: Very nice answer, Bruce! Thanks for your help. :)