It seems to me that a lot of Mormons don’t really understand much about the doctrine of their church. As best I can tell, Mormons who really know their own doctrine don’t even consider themselves to be part of classical Christianity. We actually strongly disagree on even the most foundational aspects of our belief.
I’ve heard, though, that Mormon leaders have lately started teaching that Christians are now fellow partakers of the Gospel, that the Christian creeds are no longer “abominable.” Is that true?
5 Responses to “It seems to me that a lot of Mormons don’t really…”
Francisco Rubio
2013-10-02 02:39:01
A statue of Jesus Christ at temple square in Salt Lake City.
No offense, friend, but you're the one who's (unintentionally) misunderstood official Mormon doctrine. Pretty much every Mormon, from the most educated to the least, considers himself/herself to be a Christian. So do most objective scholars, as well as a plurality of Americans, for that matter. (Mormons are not Protestants... is that perhaps what you mean?)
Are Mormons part of "classical Christianity," then? If by classical Christianity you mean the Christianity that developed after the death of the apostles, which included the adoption of creeds and crescent Hellenization, then even Mormons would say "no." Mormons don't consider post-apostolic creeds to be doctrinally valid or binding. (Modern Protestantism is also quite different than the Christianity of the early Church Fathers, but that's another topic entirely...)
If by classical Christianity you mean the kind of Christianity that Jesus practiced (i.e., Biblical Christianity), then Mormons would almost universally say "yes." Perhaps terms like "creedal Christianity" would be more helpful than "classical Christianity" to avoid this ambiguity.
Mormons have always considered creedal Christians to be fellow Christians (i.e., "partakers of the Gospel"). Historically, there certainly have been some tensions between Mormon Christianity and other Christian denominations for various complex reasons. We're not big fans of how you guys belittle our faith in Christ, for example, and you're probably not big fans of our belief that some elements of ancient Christianity were lost and have been restored uniquely within the Mormon tradition. I get that. But really, Mormon-"Christian" differences are greatly exaggerated. Ninety percent of everything Mormons believe is also believed by other Christian denominations.
It's true, though, that Mormons are not fans of the post-apostolic creeds. We don't use words like abominable so much any more (thank goodness), but we do think those creeds should be rejected, except where they "jive" with the Bible. On this particular issue, there really hasn't been so much of a change in Mormon doctrine, but rather a change in attitude and, certainly, rhetoric.
Since we've largely abandoned the word "abominable," perhaps you guys could consider abandoning "cult"? Just sayin'...
Anonymous
2013-10-03 03:30:05
I thought Mormons believed they were the one true and authorized Church on the earth, and that they alone offers a true knowledge of God. I thought you taught that although other churches have a form of godliness, they are all wrong and have abominable creeds. It's that the reason your church came into existence? I'll be very embarrassed if I'm mistaken!
Also, I get that Mormons believe themselves to be Christian. My real question is do they believe their Baptists neighbors to be just as Christian as they are?
Of course I define "Christianity" to be those religions that accept the creeds. That's how Christianity has been defined for 1500 years.
Also, what do you mean when you say Mormons believe other Christians to be "partakers of the Gospel"? I'm wondering if that's misleading.
Finally, I don't know how you can really believe that 90% of what Mormons and Christians teach is the same. In my experience, there's very little in Mormonism that isn't entirely foreign to my experience as a Christian. We may use the same words, but we almost always mean something different, right?
Francisco Rubio
2013-10-03 03:33:56
Through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, Mormons believe we can overcome sin and death. (Reflections of Christ)
"I'll be very embarrassed if I'm mistaken!"
You are mistaken, but no need to be embarrassed. :) Here's the breakdown:
1) Mormons believe the priesthood ("authority to act in God's name in an official capacity") was taken from the earth following the death of the apostles. This same priesthood was restored through Joseph Smith. That's principally what we mean when we talk about the "restoration."
2) Mormons do not believe they alone offer a true knowledge of God. There are some unique truths that can be found within Mormonism, sure, but other religions also have much of the truth.
3) While Mormons (like pretty much all Christian denominations) do honor their own unique truth claims, the idea that Mormons believe other churches are universally "wrong" is simply not accurate. Your own statement shows that this cannot be the case. How could Mormons believe other churches have a form of godliness if they are also "wrong"? Of course Mormons don't agree with (for example) Baptists on every doctrinal point, just as Baptists don't always agree with us, but we do honor the many truths that can be found in other faiths.
4) Mormons would say the main reason their church came into existence was to restore certain key truths that were known anciently, as well as to restore the priesthood authority. This restoration does not mean that other religious people are godless heathens who have no access to any truth or to God's love/grace/etc. On the contrary, if it weren't for the doctrinal and historical foundation laid by those of other faiths (the Church fathers, the reformers, etc.), Mormonism could have never come into existence.
"My real question is do they believe their Baptists neighbors to be just as Christian as they are?"
I think you're projecting your own background onto your Mormon neighbors. I know some other denominations are very concerned with deciding who is a "true Christian" and who isn't. While Mormons have their own set of problems, they really aren't into the whole judging-other-people's-claim-to-Christianity thing. Mormons certainly do disagree with some Baptist teachings (if we didn't, we'd be Baptists!), but we definitely do consider Baptists (and Catholics, and Episcopalians, etc.) to be 100%, fully Christian.
"[Adherence to creeds is]... how Christianity has been defined for 1500 years."
Most Christians over the centuries (and most Christians today) have not and do not define Christianity that way. For most people, a Christian is simply one who believes in and worships Jesus Christ. No offense, but I think it's pretty silly to use a definition of "Christian" that would exclude Jesus Christ Himself, since he lived centuries before the creeds. Furthermore, since Jesus is ultimately the one who decides who is a true Christian, it seems a bit blasphemous to me that any human being would presume to have that right. We can definitely discuss doctrinal differences (and there are some!), but we shouldn't be attacking each other's fundamental faith in Christ.
"...what do you mean when you say Mormons believe other Christians to be partakers of the Gospel?"
It could be that I don't understand exactly what you mean by "partakers of the Gospel." What I mean is this. If you ask Joe Mormon off the street if his Baptist neighbor is a Christian, he will say yes. He won't qualify it or try to diminish his neighbor's Christianity. If you press the Mormon, he'd acknowledge there are some important doctrinal differences, but that doesn't mean his neighbor isn't just as Christian as he is. Every denomination disagrees with every other on at least some point. That's why various denominations exist. That's why Mormons send missionaries to other Christian denominations.
"...there's very little in Mormonism that isn't entirely foreign to my experience as a Christian."
You do seem to know a bit about Mormons, which makes your statement all the more perplexing to me. You are clearly intelligent, and yet I can't understand how any intelligent person could come to the conclusion that Mormonism is "completely foreign" to Christianity. I can even get the "Mormons aren't Christians" argument (though I think it's baseless and silly), but, even if we're not Christian, we are certainly at least very similar to Christians. Consider this quote from an academic book entitled "Anthology of World Scriptures" by Robert E. Van Voorst: "...the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... see themselves as Christian, and most experts in comparative religions would view this labeling as basically correct. That they... accept the Christian Bible as their first cannon is a good indicator of this. Moreover, outsiders to [Christianity], such as Buddhists, would almost certainly recognize them as belonging to the stream of Christian tradition."
It is certainly true that Mormons, Protestants, and Catholics don't agree on every point of doctrine, but clearly they all share many beliefs in common. I'd say the "theological distance" between Mormons and Protestants, for example, is about the same as the distance between Protestants and Catholics. (Of course, it wasn't that long ago that some Protestants questioned Catholics' Christianity as well, so perhaps that's a bad example!)
It is true that Mormons and Protestants at times ascribe different meanings to the same words. The same is true of Catholics and Protestants (consider, for example, the word "saint"). This can lead to some confusion, admittedly, but that hardly means Mormon doctrine is universally "foreign" to mainstream Christian tradition.
Grandpa Chet
2013-10-04 06:14:51
Sounds to me, Mr or Ms Anonymous, that you've already made up your mind and don't wish to be distracted by facts. You are confusing (as I did, prior to 1990) the words "Protestant" with "Christian." Though a Protestant can be a Christian, a Christian is not necessarily a Protestant. Many Christians (example: Coptic Christians, who are being beheaded at an alarming rate) never bought into some, much, or any of the creeds - especially since they were developed by committee. Like the first century Christians, Latter-day Saints tend to prefer revelation from God to committee decisions. Heck, when we DO have committees and try to develop rules, Jesus frequently has been known to correct us.
Brigham Young, for instance, was famous for preaching something he considered doctrine - only to appear the next session of a conference, to explain that the Lord had called him on the carpet and corrected him. (Seems I used this example in a recent explanation somewhere.)
We don't mind what anyone else worships: that's called "agency" or freedom of choice - something with which we have NO right to interfere. We can and do offer information.
David Polander
2013-10-05 10:32:22
Just wanted to weigh in on one point. Your suggestion that "average Mormons" or "Joe Mormon off the street" would agree on doctrine is a little bit optimistic. While we are all taught the same doctrine and have access to the guidance of the Spirit, I have encountered many who misquote and misunderstand doctrine, as well as those who allow contention to enter Into their interactions and therefore often disagree or even deny a statement made that, even if it Includes a majority of truth, still contains an untruth or miss-characterization with which they don't agree, understand or possibly find offensive.
Regardless that it is a normal human response to become defensive when one is obviously attacked, these members damage the credibility of our doctrine because they fail to remain calm and reply with the words of the Spirit to clarify that doctrine, or at least to admit that they don't really understand, but will question and seek the answer, as we are so often taught we should.
Sure, there is some danger in listening to the sophistry and often cleverly crafted dialog that is intended to cause doubt in our doctrine. Still, the scriptures, including and especially the Bible, contain not only the truth, but the capacity to obtain greater understanding when studied and pondered prayerfully. No doctrine within or outside the church should be based on anything but that method.
Other than that qualification, I find your explanations very consistent with what I would say.
Francisco Rubio: Hi David. Thanks for your comment. I didn't mean to equate "Joe Mormon" and "every Mormon." Joe Mormon is your typical, mainstream, active Mormon. The kind of Mormon that has a good grasp on basic church doctrine, thanks to things like regular church attendance, seminary, institute, etc., etc. Most Mormons like that would definitely agree that Baptists, Catholics, etc. are "Christians." It's definitely true, though, that in any group of millions of people there are going to be some members with unorthodox ideas. It's also definitely true that people sometimes make foolish statements when reacting to perceived offenses. I agree entirely with your analysis.
Are Mormons part of "classical Christianity," then? If by classical Christianity you mean the Christianity that developed after the death of the apostles, which included the adoption of creeds and crescent Hellenization, then even Mormons would say "no." Mormons don't consider post-apostolic creeds to be doctrinally valid or binding. (Modern Protestantism is also quite different than the Christianity of the early Church Fathers, but that's another topic entirely...)
If by classical Christianity you mean the kind of Christianity that Jesus practiced (i.e., Biblical Christianity), then Mormons would almost universally say "yes." Perhaps terms like "creedal Christianity" would be more helpful than "classical Christianity" to avoid this ambiguity.
Mormons have always considered creedal Christians to be fellow Christians (i.e., "partakers of the Gospel"). Historically, there certainly have been some tensions between Mormon Christianity and other Christian denominations for various complex reasons. We're not big fans of how you guys belittle our faith in Christ, for example, and you're probably not big fans of our belief that some elements of ancient Christianity were lost and have been restored uniquely within the Mormon tradition. I get that. But really, Mormon-"Christian" differences are greatly exaggerated. Ninety percent of everything Mormons believe is also believed by other Christian denominations.
It's true, though, that Mormons are not fans of the post-apostolic creeds. We don't use words like abominable so much any more (thank goodness), but we do think those creeds should be rejected, except where they "jive" with the Bible. On this particular issue, there really hasn't been so much of a change in Mormon doctrine, but rather a change in attitude and, certainly, rhetoric.
Since we've largely abandoned the word "abominable," perhaps you guys could consider abandoning "cult"? Just sayin'...
Also, I get that Mormons believe themselves to be Christian. My real question is do they believe their Baptists neighbors to be just as Christian as they are?
Of course I define "Christianity" to be those religions that accept the creeds. That's how Christianity has been defined for 1500 years.
Also, what do you mean when you say Mormons believe other Christians to be "partakers of the Gospel"? I'm wondering if that's misleading.
Finally, I don't know how you can really believe that 90% of what Mormons and Christians teach is the same. In my experience, there's very little in Mormonism that isn't entirely foreign to my experience as a Christian. We may use the same words, but we almost always mean something different, right?
You are mistaken, but no need to be embarrassed. :) Here's the breakdown:
1) Mormons believe the priesthood ("authority to act in God's name in an official capacity") was taken from the earth following the death of the apostles. This same priesthood was restored through Joseph Smith. That's principally what we mean when we talk about the "restoration."
2) Mormons do not believe they alone offer a true knowledge of God. There are some unique truths that can be found within Mormonism, sure, but other religions also have much of the truth.
3) While Mormons (like pretty much all Christian denominations) do honor their own unique truth claims, the idea that Mormons believe other churches are universally "wrong" is simply not accurate. Your own statement shows that this cannot be the case. How could Mormons believe other churches have a form of godliness if they are also "wrong"? Of course Mormons don't agree with (for example) Baptists on every doctrinal point, just as Baptists don't always agree with us, but we do honor the many truths that can be found in other faiths.
4) Mormons would say the main reason their church came into existence was to restore certain key truths that were known anciently, as well as to restore the priesthood authority. This restoration does not mean that other religious people are godless heathens who have no access to any truth or to God's love/grace/etc. On the contrary, if it weren't for the doctrinal and historical foundation laid by those of other faiths (the Church fathers, the reformers, etc.), Mormonism could have never come into existence.
"My real question is do they believe their Baptists neighbors to be just as Christian as they are?"
I think you're projecting your own background onto your Mormon neighbors. I know some other denominations are very concerned with deciding who is a "true Christian" and who isn't. While Mormons have their own set of problems, they really aren't into the whole judging-other-people's-claim-to-Christianity thing. Mormons certainly do disagree with some Baptist teachings (if we didn't, we'd be Baptists!), but we definitely do consider Baptists (and Catholics, and Episcopalians, etc.) to be 100%, fully Christian.
"[Adherence to creeds is]... how Christianity has been defined for 1500 years."
Most Christians over the centuries (and most Christians today) have not and do not define Christianity that way. For most people, a Christian is simply one who believes in and worships Jesus Christ. No offense, but I think it's pretty silly to use a definition of "Christian" that would exclude Jesus Christ Himself, since he lived centuries before the creeds. Furthermore, since Jesus is ultimately the one who decides who is a true Christian, it seems a bit blasphemous to me that any human being would presume to have that right. We can definitely discuss doctrinal differences (and there are some!), but we shouldn't be attacking each other's fundamental faith in Christ.
"...what do you mean when you say Mormons believe other Christians to be partakers of the Gospel?"
It could be that I don't understand exactly what you mean by "partakers of the Gospel." What I mean is this. If you ask Joe Mormon off the street if his Baptist neighbor is a Christian, he will say yes. He won't qualify it or try to diminish his neighbor's Christianity. If you press the Mormon, he'd acknowledge there are some important doctrinal differences, but that doesn't mean his neighbor isn't just as Christian as he is. Every denomination disagrees with every other on at least some point. That's why various denominations exist. That's why Mormons send missionaries to other Christian denominations.
"...there's very little in Mormonism that isn't entirely foreign to my experience as a Christian."
You do seem to know a bit about Mormons, which makes your statement all the more perplexing to me. You are clearly intelligent, and yet I can't understand how any intelligent person could come to the conclusion that Mormonism is "completely foreign" to Christianity. I can even get the "Mormons aren't Christians" argument (though I think it's baseless and silly), but, even if we're not Christian, we are certainly at least very similar to Christians. Consider this quote from an academic book entitled "Anthology of World Scriptures" by Robert E. Van Voorst: "...the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... see themselves as Christian, and most experts in comparative religions would view this labeling as basically correct. That they... accept the Christian Bible as their first cannon is a good indicator of this. Moreover, outsiders to [Christianity], such as Buddhists, would almost certainly recognize them as belonging to the stream of Christian tradition."
It is certainly true that Mormons, Protestants, and Catholics don't agree on every point of doctrine, but clearly they all share many beliefs in common. I'd say the "theological distance" between Mormons and Protestants, for example, is about the same as the distance between Protestants and Catholics. (Of course, it wasn't that long ago that some Protestants questioned Catholics' Christianity as well, so perhaps that's a bad example!)
It is true that Mormons and Protestants at times ascribe different meanings to the same words. The same is true of Catholics and Protestants (consider, for example, the word "saint"). This can lead to some confusion, admittedly, but that hardly means Mormon doctrine is universally "foreign" to mainstream Christian tradition.
Brigham Young, for instance, was famous for preaching something he considered doctrine - only to appear the next session of a conference, to explain that the Lord had called him on the carpet and corrected him. (Seems I used this example in a recent explanation somewhere.)
We don't mind what anyone else worships: that's called "agency" or freedom of choice - something with which we have NO right to interfere. We can and do offer information.
Regardless that it is a normal human response to become defensive when one is obviously attacked, these members damage the credibility of our doctrine because they fail to remain calm and reply with the words of the Spirit to clarify that doctrine, or at least to admit that they don't really understand, but will question and seek the answer, as we are so often taught we should.
Sure, there is some danger in listening to the sophistry and often cleverly crafted dialog that is intended to cause doubt in our doctrine. Still, the scriptures, including and especially the Bible, contain not only the truth, but the capacity to obtain greater understanding when studied and pondered prayerfully. No doctrine within or outside the church should be based on anything but that method.
Other than that qualification, I find your explanations very consistent with what I would say.
Francisco Rubio: Hi David. Thanks for your comment. I didn't mean to equate "Joe Mormon" and "every Mormon." Joe Mormon is your typical, mainstream, active Mormon. The kind of Mormon that has a good grasp on basic church doctrine, thanks to things like regular church attendance, seminary, institute, etc., etc. Most Mormons like that would definitely agree that Baptists, Catholics, etc. are "Christians." It's definitely true, though, that in any group of millions of people there are going to be some members with unorthodox ideas. It's also definitely true that people sometimes make foolish statements when reacting to perceived offenses. I agree entirely with your analysis.