I have been a member all my life, and always have had a very strong testimony. But, I am having a very difficult time reconciling my testimony with the history of the church (my sources have been scholarly: example- Richard Bushman). Do you believe everything the prophets have said and done are right and guided by God? How involved do you believe God is in the administration of the church? Is it good men doing what they believe is good, or are they constantly guided by revelation? I want to learn about the history of the church but oftentimes what I learn shakes me. How do you get to a point where you can learn factual historical information without questioning what you’ve always known to be true?
It sounds to me like you know enough about prophets but you don't fully understand how prophets interact with God. I still don't know everything yet, but I do know that Joseph Smith saw what he says he saw, (and that is God the Father and his son Jesus Christ) and they through Joseph, with help of angels sent from God (Moroni being one), restored the authoritative keys of the church again on earth. I feel that you would believe that too, but you're just questioning the mechanics and you are allowing your questions to turn in a way that you're questioning whether or not our living prophets are actualy real prophets. Sound to me like you may lack wisdom and need to do as James directs and ask of God for your answer.
Prophets are just people like you and I who are working out their own salvation. Prophets are still mortal, but their calling and ordination to be a prophet gives to them authority to receive revelation for the entire world as well as lead and direct the afairs of God's church restored again on the earth.
If you want fact over fiction information I would direct you to the official church website, http://www.lds.org, and search out topics of your choosing... For example ----
Prophets"As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to be led by living prophetsinspired men called to speak for the Lord, as did Moses, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Mormon, and other prophets of the scriptures. We sustain the president of the church as prophet, seer, and revelatorthe only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire church. We also sustain the counselors in the First Presidency and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators."
This is much like a father's role in his home, by authority of his being a father he has a right to seek after revelation and guidence for all of his posterity. Being a father, however, doesn't give the right to have inspiration and revelation for the neighborhood children. (Personally as far as they are concenerned all I can do is give them advice for living if they ask, but I in truth I don't have authority over them... Thank heaven ;) )
I believe that all that the prophets have said and done by way of proclamation is the will of God and that they are speaking as if God were here speaking himself. Read your Doctrine and Covenents 1:38 "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." Also in that section we read how we are to seak out our own revelation and ask God for answers...
As to prophets personal lives and oppinions those are their own and they gain their oppinions by study of doctrine and give their best opinion on matters of the time. Just because you may not agree with a prophet's oppinion doesn't mean the church is not true, it means you have your own agency and own set of oppinion and, in fact, you are an agent unto yourself.
Men and women who speak in conference go about their talks by following God's direction for receiving revelation and then they present what they have received to the world. I've heard that the people who speak in a general conference, read, study, fast, and pray for months before they give their talks.
I don't feel you are lacking in testimony, but you are just questioning your beliefs... I own the Gordon Hinckley movie, that KSL did on him after his death, and he speaks in there about the time he was at college and questioned everything, himself. He studied, fasted, and prayed to know and he got witness of his own. I've done the same thing myself and I know that this church is true and that our prophets are men who have worked hard to become holy men and they are called of God to lead the church. I counsel you to go out and do the same, search, ponder, fast, and pray and God will tell you that all the church is true and that is enough... Forgive the prophets of old for things you don't agree with and let them be forgiven. The church is still true even if the prophets happen to be mortal and make mortal mistakes.
"Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. And ye ought to say in your heartslet God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds."
Pamela Dean
2009-07-21 04:43:35
What a wonderful response by Richard! Perhaps my own experiences and insights will help you as well...
I, too, love to read about the early history of the church. I, too, questioned many of the things I read... So much so that it prevented me from being baptized for almost 6 years as I felt that I had to have all my questions answered before I became a member. For six years I went to church, read the scriptures, watched the movies, met with missionaries, etc., etc., etc. - I even read every anti-mormon piece of literature that I could find. When it got to the point where I was refuting the anti-mormon literature, I realized that I had put things off for long enough and was baptized two weeks later. What a waste of six years!
After many discussions with other members and after drawing my own conclusions about church leadership this is what I have come to understand:
1. Prophets - and apostles and presidents and bishops and elders - are human, just like us. They will make mistakes, as will we. It is not our job to question them, but to sustain them in what they do. This means that we will follow our own conscience in deciding whether we will do as they as they ask and accept their guidance. Their responsibility - and it is an awesome one in the truest sense of the word - is to live their lives in such a way that they can be guided by Heavenly Father through revelation. If they fail to do so, the judgment of God will be on their heads. Conversely, the judgment of God will be on *our* heads for not following the righteous guidance of our leaders. How can we know if they are acting righteously? Well, first of all, a prophet is never going to go against established doctrine. Have there been instances where doctrine has changed? On first glance... Yes! Blacks holding the priesthood is one notable example. But careful consideration of the issue actually reveals that it was God's purpose all along to allow all worthy men to hold the priesthood. God's plan did not change - the societal mores had, thus allowing this wonderful part of Heavenly Father's plan to come to fruition. Secondly, if we are in tune with the spirit, we will know that our leaders are guiding us with the hand of God. I remember a relief society lesson on adoption that being taught by a new convert. She absolutely believed that what she was saying was right based on her own life experiences before she joined the church, but those of us present who were familiar with the church's policies on adoption knew that she was in error. As such we were able to correct her in love and gentleness in a way that preserved her dignity. I am sure you have had experiences during sacrament service where someone's talk struck you 'the wrong way' - I know I have on a few occasions. That feeling was in all likelihood the spirit speaking to you. You knew something was not right because you were in tune with the spirit. If the spirit lets us know these things in our hundreds in our own small branches and wards and stakes, surely it will let us know in our millions as a world-wide community!
2. I believe God is the head of the church and that he is guiding it unceasingly. I just have to hear the testimonies of any of the church leaders to know that they have personal relationships with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father. When I hear Pres. Eyring tell how he prayed on his knees all night over a family issue, I have faith that if he will do that for a select few, he will certainly do the same for the millions he is responsible for.
3. The 13th article of faith states: "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men.... If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." This is the very definition of "Good men doing what they believe is good"... And since it is part of our beliefs as latter-day saints, beliefs which came from Heavenly Father through Joseph Smith, we can rest assured that anything that falls under this category does not necessarily need guidance by revelation. The revelation was already given 170 years ago!
4. If you want to truly understand the history of the early saints, you have to understand the broader historical context. Knowing that women in the 1800s were not allowed to vote, own property, were extremely limited in ways to support themselves; knowing that many men in the church had been killed through persecution; knowing that many women were left to care for children alone on very limited means helped me to understand the Lord's allowance of polygamy in the early church. This was confirmed to me when I read that basically it was only men who were worthy and who could afford to care for many family members who were involved in polygamy, and polygamy was different from 'spiritual marriage'. Knowing these things in the broader historical context helped me to understand this often misunderstood part of church history.
A final note: when in doubt... pray. Pray to know if what you are reading is historical fact or whether it is from Satan. Pray for the wisdom to know the difference. Pray for the strength to stand by your life-long beliefs. Just pray. I would also suggest that if you are reading about particular events in church history and those negative feelings come over you, it may be a sign from the spirit that you should switch to a different book on the same topic.
Prophets are just people like you and I who are working out their own salvation. Prophets are still mortal, but their calling and ordination to be a prophet gives to them authority to receive revelation for the entire world as well as lead and direct the afairs of God's church restored again on the earth.
If you want fact over fiction information I would direct you to the official church website, http://www.lds.org, and search out topics of your choosing... For example ----
Prophets"As members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to be led by living prophetsinspired men called to speak for the Lord, as did Moses, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Mormon, and other prophets of the scriptures. We sustain the president of the church as prophet, seer, and revelatorthe only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire church. We also sustain the counselors in the First Presidency and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators."
This is much like a father's role in his home, by authority of his being a father he has a right to seek after revelation and guidence for all of his posterity. Being a father, however, doesn't give the right to have inspiration and revelation for the neighborhood children. (Personally as far as they are concenerned all I can do is give them advice for living if they ask, but I in truth I don't have authority over them... Thank heaven ;) )
I believe that all that the prophets have said and done by way of proclamation is the will of God and that they are speaking as if God were here speaking himself. Read your Doctrine and Covenents 1:38 "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." Also in that section we read how we are to seak out our own revelation and ask God for answers...
As to prophets personal lives and oppinions those are their own and they gain their oppinions by study of doctrine and give their best opinion on matters of the time. Just because you may not agree with a prophet's oppinion doesn't mean the church is not true, it means you have your own agency and own set of oppinion and, in fact, you are an agent unto yourself.
Men and women who speak in conference go about their talks by following God's direction for receiving revelation and then they present what they have received to the world. I've heard that the people who speak in a general conference, read, study, fast, and pray for months before they give their talks.
I don't feel you are lacking in testimony, but you are just questioning your beliefs... I own the Gordon Hinckley movie, that KSL did on him after his death, and he speaks in there about the time he was at college and questioned everything, himself. He studied, fasted, and prayed to know and he got witness of his own. I've done the same thing myself and I know that this church is true and that our prophets are men who have worked hard to become holy men and they are called of God to lead the church. I counsel you to go out and do the same, search, ponder, fast, and pray and God will tell you that all the church is true and that is enough... Forgive the prophets of old for things you don't agree with and let them be forgiven. The church is still true even if the prophets happen to be mortal and make mortal mistakes.
"Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. And ye ought to say in your heartslet God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds."
I, too, love to read about the early history of the church. I, too, questioned many of the things I read... So much so that it prevented me from being baptized for almost 6 years as I felt that I had to have all my questions answered before I became a member. For six years I went to church, read the scriptures, watched the movies, met with missionaries, etc., etc., etc. - I even read every anti-mormon piece of literature that I could find. When it got to the point where I was refuting the anti-mormon literature, I realized that I had put things off for long enough and was baptized two weeks later. What a waste of six years!
After many discussions with other members and after drawing my own conclusions about church leadership this is what I have come to understand:
1. Prophets - and apostles and presidents and bishops and elders - are human, just like us. They will make mistakes, as will we. It is not our job to question them, but to sustain them in what they do. This means that we will follow our own conscience in deciding whether we will do as they as they ask and accept their guidance. Their responsibility - and it is an awesome one in the truest sense of the word - is to live their lives in such a way that they can be guided by Heavenly Father through revelation. If they fail to do so, the judgment of God will be on their heads. Conversely, the judgment of God will be on *our* heads for not following the righteous guidance of our leaders. How can we know if they are acting righteously? Well, first of all, a prophet is never going to go against established doctrine. Have there been instances where doctrine has changed? On first glance... Yes! Blacks holding the priesthood is one notable example. But careful consideration of the issue actually reveals that it was God's purpose all along to allow all worthy men to hold the priesthood. God's plan did not change - the societal mores had, thus allowing this wonderful part of Heavenly Father's plan to come to fruition. Secondly, if we are in tune with the spirit, we will know that our leaders are guiding us with the hand of God. I remember a relief society lesson on adoption that being taught by a new convert. She absolutely believed that what she was saying was right based on her own life experiences before she joined the church, but those of us present who were familiar with the church's policies on adoption knew that she was in error. As such we were able to correct her in love and gentleness in a way that preserved her dignity. I am sure you have had experiences during sacrament service where someone's talk struck you 'the wrong way' - I know I have on a few occasions. That feeling was in all likelihood the spirit speaking to you. You knew something was not right because you were in tune with the spirit. If the spirit lets us know these things in our hundreds in our own small branches and wards and stakes, surely it will let us know in our millions as a world-wide community!
2. I believe God is the head of the church and that he is guiding it unceasingly. I just have to hear the testimonies of any of the church leaders to know that they have personal relationships with Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father. When I hear Pres. Eyring tell how he prayed on his knees all night over a family issue, I have faith that if he will do that for a select few, he will certainly do the same for the millions he is responsible for.
3. The 13th article of faith states: "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men.... If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." This is the very definition of "Good men doing what they believe is good"... And since it is part of our beliefs as latter-day saints, beliefs which came from Heavenly Father through Joseph Smith, we can rest assured that anything that falls under this category does not necessarily need guidance by revelation. The revelation was already given 170 years ago!
4. If you want to truly understand the history of the early saints, you have to understand the broader historical context. Knowing that women in the 1800s were not allowed to vote, own property, were extremely limited in ways to support themselves; knowing that many men in the church had been killed through persecution; knowing that many women were left to care for children alone on very limited means helped me to understand the Lord's allowance of polygamy in the early church. This was confirmed to me when I read that basically it was only men who were worthy and who could afford to care for many family members who were involved in polygamy, and polygamy was different from 'spiritual marriage'. Knowing these things in the broader historical context helped me to understand this often misunderstood part of church history.
A final note: when in doubt... pray. Pray to know if what you are reading is historical fact or whether it is from Satan. Pray for the wisdom to know the difference. Pray for the strength to stand by your life-long beliefs. Just pray. I would also suggest that if you are reading about particular events in church history and those negative feelings come over you, it may be a sign from the spirit that you should switch to a different book on the same topic.
Hoping these suggestions help. Blessings, Pam